Welcome And Meet Nick Westergaard

Jeannie Walters 0:09

Welcome to another CX Pulse Check where we take the pulse of what's going on in the customer experience world today. And I'm delighted to have a special co-host with me. Now, some of you who are focused on marketing and branding, I'm sure this person needs no introduction because his podcast On Brand is one of the most popular ones out there. I was delighted to be a guest on it myself. And I'm turning the tables on Mr. Nick Westergaard. Nick, I'm so happy you're here. Thanks for being here with us.

Nick Westergaard 0:42

I am excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me and uh and for flipping the microphones uh around the other way.

Jeannie Walters 0:51

Well, I love the way you think about branding and your approach. And just I feel like you and I share a holistic sense of what all of this is. So I'm really excited to get your feedback. But for those of those of the audience out there who may not know Nick Westergaard, which I have trouble believing, but what would you say about yourself that's important for folks to know?

Nick Westergaard 1:15

Well, you mentioned the On Brand podcast. We just rolled over 600 and some episodes uh of that earlier in the year. So that's increasingly kind of my my my biggest work. I've uh written a couple of books, Brand Now and Get Scrappy. Uh, and I also teach at the University of Iowa, uh, where I also lead a program called Story Lab. So

Jeannie Walters 1:41

Love that.

Nick Westergaard 1:42

Helping organizations and individuals craft and share their stories is really my business.

Jeannie Walters 1:49

I love it. I had the opportunity to work with University of Iowa a few years ago, and uh it was really fun to go up there and be on the campus and just feel like I was feel like I was young again, right? So it's it's got a great energy to it, I think. But that's really and you've been there for quite a while, right?

Nick Westergaard 2:11

I have been. I've been teaching since I think 2012.

Jeannie Walters 2:15

So that's awesome. Well, lucky students that you have. So, what I wanted to do today because of your expertise and the lens you bring. And like I said, I think we share a holistic view, which is why it feels very uh yin yang when we get together. Um, I wanted to really look at everything through that lens of, you know, when I talk about the customer experience and the customer journey, it starts way before they become a customer, right? It starts when they start having even the inkling of, hey, maybe I might need something, not even the awareness of the brand itself. And one of the big conversations that's happening in customer experience right now is kind of like, well, what are the levers we can actually pull in customer experience work to actually make a difference?

Why Consistency Drives Turnarounds

Jeannie Walters 3:04

And that's why I thought this first article that I'm going to share was really interesting because a lot of the kind of things we hear about, the moments, they're they're big, they're splashy, and that's what we hear about. But when we look at this, this is from CX Dive, which is often a source here. And I um I'm actually talking to them later today. So this is very timely. But we uh the headline is why three major brands see a consistent experience as key to their turnarounds. And this really struck me because sometimes we talk about these things like you've got to be flashy, you've got to do wow all the time. But really, these brands, and they were talking about Starbucks, Target, and Kohl's, they all came back to this idea of consistency, but for different reasons. They talked about investing in the employee training, they talked about the um checkout experience, they talked about these different things that are sometimes overlooked and neglected. So I'm curious, what did you see in this and and what did you take away from this article?

Nick Westergaard 4:09

Well, I I love what you said about consistency there too, because I think when we're talking, when we see what so often gets the headlines, that's why I think this article is so great, is it's it's the it's the big colossal, I can't believe they did that. And even when it comes to customer experience as well, I'm uh watching uh the final season of The Bear right now, and every now and then they have uh you know a surprise for one of their dining guests, some special thing that they'll do. And I think that's important, I think that's great, but I think a lot of times when we think about experience, that's where our heads go straight to. And when you're talking about, and these are big organizations too, really moving the needle it is stuff that you might not think of as hey, what's the biggest, splashiest experience thing you can do? Well, more training, consistent, consistency. And and so I mean it was what I loved about this article is it kind of uh uh you know, the uh the it was a nice reminder for for brands to eat their vegetables. And uh a lot of times we get entranced by those surprises and and just consistency in training, in experience, and not surprising at all when you look at um those organizations, uh Starbucks, Kohl's, and and Target. But I also think you know, I think about you know, very big and and very small, because that's also something that you can do that, in addition to being uh a driver of consistency, is also scrappy. That's not something that uh just Target can do. You know, you could do that for your local restaurant uh as well. And in some ways, it might be easier because you can pull everybody together and get them in front of a training, maybe easier than a multi-location, uh, multi-state, multinational uh brand can.

Jeannie Walters 6:36

Well, and I love the way you phrase that with eat your vegetables, right? Because one of the examples was with Kohl's, it was really about hey, you know what, we have to get better inventory and we have to manage that inventory better to have a better customer experience. And it's one of those things that I mentioned this before, but like during the pandemic, I remember, you know, when everybody was freaking out and buying toilet paper, right? And all of a sudden we had all these issues with inventory and retail and supply chain. And I was talking to customer experience leaders, and they were like, I never thought supply chain would impact me. And it's like, well, everything is part of the customer experience, but you have to think about it that way because if not, you're gonna be totally taken off guard when something isn't going right. And I think what I loved about these examples is that they were investing in, okay, what is going fine, but not good enough? Like, what could we turn the volume up on these operational things that we're already doing? They already have inventory management, they already have training, but what could we do about it to make it even better for the customer more consistent? Because consistency then is how we build trust. And I think that that is often overlooked too. So I just love that the turnaround stories were kind of based in real reality of what's happening out there.

Nick Westergaard 8:07

Well, and I like the kind of uh assessment that you just alluded to, because I think another part of the trap is that we look at, you know, everything that we're doing and and and we audit that, and then we look to add some sort of big splashy home run, uh knock it out of the park type thing. But the real value, like you talk, like what's the stuff that's just fine that's already happening that we could, if we could I always think of it like the ice cube tray when it comes to consistency. If we could get all of the ice cube or uh the water up to the same line in the ice cube tray across the board, um it can really add an impact.

Jeannie Walters 8:54

I feel like you and I might have had the same Midwest upbringing where we had the manual ice cream or ice cube tray that you had to fill up perfectly.

Nick Westergaard 9:04

So so we've still got one of those uh in our garage fridge. And with Fourth of July, uh my son was getting ice and uh he didn't know how to get it out. I had to teach him the you know, the twisty.

Jeannie Walters 9:19

Ain't that great! These things that you think everybody knows. I know, I know. Uh that's very funny though. But I love that. Is it uh metaphor analogy? I always mix those up, but you know, example, let's say.

Nick Westergaard 9:32

Yes.

Jeannie Walters 9:32

And I love that because really when we're we're talking about consistency, we're talking about like, let's keep it all level, everybody, right? Like, let's just keep it consistent because again, if you can show up consistently for customers, they're going to trust you when there is an inconsistency. But if you're constantly inconsistent, that trust will never ever be built.

Neuroscience And Reducing Cognitive Load

Jeannie Walters 9:55

And speaking of this and how brains work, let's jump into neuroscience, shall we?

Nick Westergaard 10:03

Yes. Yay.

Jeannie Walters 10:04

So this is from retail customer experience, and the headline is rethinking CX, the role neuroscience plays in developing the customer experience. And this one is is close to my heart because when I uh have my keynotes, one of the first things I talk about is how the way we think isn't necessarily the way everybody thinks, and we have to understand what makes us think that way to begin with, right? Like, why are we thinking, why do we believe these things? Because sometimes our brain plays tricks on us. Sometimes we are coming from a place of you know protection and scarcity, and so that has us react differently or be cynical or all of those things. And so I just thought it was really interesting to uh talk about this in a different way. And when we talk about, and I know you know, you love this stuff too, but when we talk about how um to reduce friction for customers, I think sometimes we throw that term around without thinking about what does that really do? And what we talked about here was it's really about reducing cognitive load for people. And when you put it into that context, first of all, I think it makes it more meaningful, right? We are we are helping somebody get to where they need to go in an easier way. And then the other thing is when I whenever I hear that term cognitive load, I always think, oh yeah, like isn't that what we're all feeling all the time? So so what was your take on this one?

Nick Westergaard 11:42

Yeah, I I one of my I'm I'm I'm on fire with the analogies, I guess, today. But what I when I talk, because I talk about this a lot and talk about cognitive load, I always say that you know, your your audience uh in talking about that to kind of um you know, without going too far down the science route, talking about cognitive load, I always liken it to you know, your laptop when it's processing power, when it's doing too much. I I always say, what happens? Well, the you know, it slows down, it it doesn't work as well. If it's an older machine, you might you might hear a fan start running. And I say, that's your your customers' brains, especially today. Um, because one of the other things that I think is important to understand, and you mentioned this too, in terms of where people are and and and how irrational uh customers are today, is that we're in a state of constant partial attention. That if you think about it, most of us are rarely doing a singular thing. We're making dinner and thinking about work, and also we've got an eye on what's on TV or what's on a screen. And with more screens, more information coming at us all the time, we are overwhelmed. And that's why I think, in addition to the science, it also makes me think I think it's Siegel and Gale that has their simplicity index and frequently talks about the value of brands that can simplify things for customers. And it's kind of a common theme because it makes me think of what we were just saying with with uh experience not always being additive. And I think this is kind of the science behind that too, is we think, hey, we're gonna improve something, let's add things to it. And a lot of times it is about simplifying, clarifying. So to me, these these two stories uh really kind of go together.

Jeannie Walters 14:07

I I totally agree. And I think we're in this age now where we are seeing so many changes at a pace we didn't even know was possible, right? Like the way AI and all these things are speeding up what is possible, that it's really important, I think, to ask just because we can, should we?

Nick Westergaard 14:31

Right.

Jeannie Walters 14:31

And um, I think what you just illustrated there is is why that's so important. I think sometimes we have to take that step back and think about what is this really doing? Is it simplifying? Is it helping somebody get to their goal faster? And if it's not, then we have to rethink this. And I think that's why so many, I think the recent stat is like 84% of people don't trust AI and customer service. And what I believe is that they're thinking of those horrible chatbot experiences that we all had because they all released them without really paying attention. And now it's much better. There are people who are experiencing great service with AI and they don't even know it. Right. And but we built up that cynicism in their brains now, and so now we have to overcome that. So it's just like if we're not thinking about this with what is the actual journey, what are they trying to do? And how are they experiencing it, even if it's not rational? How are they experiencing it? Then we're missing the opportunities to really look for those moments where we can go, you know, we don't we don't even need a budget for some of this, right? Like we can just make it one less question.

Nick Westergaard 15:46

Yeah, I mean, that's it, it at the risk of like oversimplifying this advice. I think that's really important. And even at the level that you said, oh, maybe like just one less question. Yeah, and like really looking at why is this the way it is, yeah. And are you know, because a lot of times I talk with her, oh, we're not really doing anything with that data point, anyways. It's just it's just always been there, and it's another hurdle in the journey.

Jeannie Walters 16:15

Absolutely. And I I've seen a lot of surveys that are developed based on you know, real earnest curiosity. But then when I ask that, well, what are we gonna do with that information? Yeah, exactly.

Nick Westergaard 16:30

I mean, and it's nice, nice, nice to have. I mean, we might someday might want to know.

Jeannie Walters 16:36

And so, you know, we're sending out surveys with 50 questions and using maybe one, right? So I think we really have to think about all of that and be very proactive. You just reminded me of something, uh project I worked on years ago. We were building out kind of the uh user interaction part of a form essentially that a customer would fill out. And it was about their home. And one of the questions that had been out there for years, Nick, I looked at it and I was like, wait, what? Because it said, is your home? You answer all these questions, square footage, everything. Is your home a townhouse or a condo? Those were the choices. And I said, Well, wait, what? Like those are the you're presenting those as a binary choice, and yet most of this assumes it's a single family home.

Nick Westergaard 17:30

Right.

Jeannie Walters 17:31

So the question is, do you have a townhouse or a condo? And they had gone years and collected this information from customers who just didn't have another option and who go, I don't know, call it a townhouse just to get me to the next one. And so I think that when we when we don't really examine things with that lens, we're missing opportunities where we've created fiction, we or friction we don't even know about, and fiction for that.

Nick Westergaard 17:58

I was gonna say both.

Jeannie Walters 18:01

I didn't even mean that one, but it worked well.

Brand Storytelling That Breaks Through

Jeannie Walters 18:06

So I thought this would this next one would be interesting, specifically with you, just because um it really is more of a brand story. But I think one of the things that you are so gifted at, which you mentioned, was really helping organizations understand not only their story, but how to use stories, how to present information in ways that people can really internalize it. And so this one really struck me. This is not a source. I'm not sure if I've ever used the source before. So this is from Variety, the entertainment publication, and it's about uh Cannes with a big C or con, however we're supposed to say it.

Nick Westergaard 18:46

I think it's can.

Jeannie Walters 18:48

Cannes. There we go. We're Midwesterners.

Nick Westergaard 18:50

We can I know it's it's hard, it feels wrong because we yeah.

Jeannie Walters 18:54

But uh, you know, big event in France with all the advertisers and everything. And the headline is every brand has a story to tell, CMOs decide how and when to tell it. And the the headline, I think, doesn't do a great job of explaining what they talk about, but essentially they were talking about moments with some of these brands where they just like nailed it. They were able to tell stories that people gravitated to. And I think, you know, you brought up, however, you so eloquently put that, we're in a constant state of partial attention, right? And so advertisers, brands, they're really feeling this. And I thought this was really an interesting example of how we can kind of break through some of that. One of my favorite examples was with CeraVe , which is a lotion owned by um L'Oreal. They have all sorts of lotions under that brand. And Kevin Durant, who's a basketball player, people were commenting that he needed moisturizer on his legs. And they jumped in in that moment and made him part of their brand story and got him to be like the face of their campaign. And it was just like understanding the moment in a way that I thought was very compelling. Um, the other one I liked was the Spotify logo, how people reacted to it because they changed it. And the CMO said, actually, this is great. This means they care. This means people are invested. And I thought that was a great example of how we can all take that feedback better, too. So, what did you think about these examples?

Nick Westergaard 20:33

I I kind of see them, and uh what I think is I think it's so easy to kind of write like surface level headline. Like you said, the headline didn't give you much to work with there about brand storytelling. But it is tricky to apply and it happens at a lot of different levels. What I actually liked was them talking about the CMO deciding how and when, because the two examples cited there speak specifically to the when.

Jeannie Walters 21:04

Yeah.

Nick Westergaard 21:05

That it is, you know, ready at a moment's notice, and you could have some of the biggest impact uh that your brand is gonna have in in the quarter. Um, because you were able to weave yourself into a story in the zeitgeist that was relevant for who you are and what you stand for. That said, I think every time something like that happens, it sparks a lot of copycats of oh, we just need to watch the conversations and and put ourselves into that story. And I think being boy, it seems like one of the like leading lotion brands is is a helpful start. But then that connection with that moment, I think, I think really mattered. Uh and I like the uh the response of the Spotify CMO that it shows that uh that that they care because I think that is that's the big takeaway. I do take a step back and wonder, but was it worth, even though they said that this is you know temporary, it's for the anniversary celebration. People were really upset. Yeah, and and I'm like, oh, it's it's you know, it's almost like they were doing another dated reference from me, but uh Sally Field, you like me, you really like me. It's like Sally, you're a movie star, it's like you're Spotify, you're well, and I think the other thing is that people's relationship with their music, and back to the irrationality of consumers today, that is so important, so special for so many. I mean, I was in thinking about this conversation today, I was thinking about you know, you see uh app icons do this, uh you know, Amazon does it every every holiday season with some you know gift wrap or ribbon on there, but I don't know that we care about where we buy our our CeraVe or our toilet paper in the same way that I'm gonna put on my songs, my music, my playlist.

Jeannie Walters 23:25

That's a great point.

Nick Westergaard 23:26

Yeah, and I I think to to their point of of people care, they do care, but I I would I would really think twice about touching that because it it's back to that idea that we were talking about earlier of friction.

Jeannie Walters 23:45

Yep.

Nick Westergaard 23:45

And I think if it made friction for even a moment, I don't think it was worth goosing your customers who have who do obviously have some some big feelings here. I was I was one of them. I was glad to see when it went back. I have the the Apple CarPlay, so the icon was and it was hard to see. It was, you know, the old one was just high contrast green and it popped. And it the disco ball thing was dark and murky, and it's kind of you know, when you're driving, kind of hard to see on the car play. And I remember when it switched back, we were on vacation a couple weeks ago. I'm like, it's back.

Jeannie Walters 24:23

Yeah.

Nick Westergaard 24:24

So

Jeannie Walters 24:25

Yeah, I think you know, you you bring up something really important, which is people like Spotify is not this generic experience, it's very personalized. It it you know feels like they know you, right? And it says, Hey, based on what you've heard, you're gonna enjoy this. And you're what you you trust it, you build your own playlist, all those things. And I think that personalization is something that is promised a lot. And if we can achieve that level of personalization with a customer, that is a big win, right? So why mess with it? Like, why mess with the experience and the connection?

Nick Westergaard 25:05

Yeah, like put a splash page inside with some confetti or something that does that. But for the it's like the front door, and um, you know, you talked about that special connection, and it makes me think, even though we were just talking about it's not always something that's big and pie in the sky experience. But I mean, my I do think one of my top experiences regularly delivered, a little bit of consistency there from a brand is the Spotify Year Wrapped, and what what a gift to customers. And um again, I think it speaks to that very personal place that you know maybe isn't the same with I'm trying to think of the landscape with with Apple Music that is part of the kind of closed off colder Apple system, Amazon's Amazon. Um, but Spotify does a lot it beyond it being your music, how it is presented, how it is organized, it is very you first. And I think it was jarring for people.

Jeannie Walters 26:14

Yeah, I agree, I agree, and I think this this happens, I think, with um with those who focus on the brand as kind of the visuals, as the I mean, this happened with the gap years ago. Remember, they changed their logo and there were like riots in the streets, and Tropicana had a huge thing when they took the orange with the straw off their packaging. People didn't know what to buy, they didn't even recognize it. So I think sometimes we create uh answers to questions nobody has. And I think that the best thing we can do as brand or experience leaders is really make sure we're not we're not leading with something that you know doesn't need to be solved. Uh, we're not trying to find a problem to solve. We're actually really paying attention to the connections, to the questions, to the interactions we have. We're really paying attention to making sure that we are representing that brand every step of the way in a consistent way. And we are creating those moments, sure, that's really important, those moments of connection, but we can't do that at expense of the consistency and of just creating that reliable experience that customers want. So I think if we put all these together, I mean, we just put together a masterclass, Nick.

Nick Westergaard 27:43

It does, it does uh to use my favorite uh favorite buzzword, it does tell a bit of a story, these three uh pieces together.

Jeannie Walters 27:52

It does,

Where To Find Nick And Wrap

Jeannie Walters 27:53

it does. Well, I love getting your perspective. And we had a lot of fun when I was on your podcast. So I want to give your podcast a shout out On Brand. Uh, go ahead and look up the episode with Jeannie Walters where I talk about the Experience Is Everything book. So we had a great conversation there too. Uh, I'm sure people will want to know more about you and where to find you. So if somebody wants to know more or connect with you, what are the best ways for them to do that?

Nick Westergaard 28:19

You can find everything at nickwestergaard.com. That's my first name and my last name. With two A's, you can thank the Danes for that one uh dot com or onbrandpodcast.com if you're uh if if spelling Westergaard is tricky, which it is.

Jeannie Walters 28:38

Excellent. Well, I recommend everybody look that up and subscribe and do all the things. So thank you so much for being here, Nick. I knew we would have a great conversation, and I am not disappointed, my friend. You did great. So and thank you.

Nick Westergaard 28:52

Thank you for having me.

Jeannie Walters 28:53

Oh my goodness, my pleasure. Please come back and and thank you for being here, for being part of our audience and for really leading the way with experience. I can't wait to share another co-host with you, another story with you. I can't wait to hear from you. Don't forget, you can always leave me a message at askjeannie.vip, and I might discuss it on the podcast. And until next time, see you later.