Jeannie Walters: 0:10

It's not only the Experience Action Podcast, but today is my favorite episode of the month. It is time for CX Pulse Check, where I invite a special co-host to talk about real-time CX news that you can use. And today I am thrilled to invite my special co-host to the stage. We have none other than my friend and the author of What's Your And?" John Garrett. John nice to see you.

John Garrett: 0:37

So great to see you as well. Thank you for inviting me. I don't know how many thousand people said no, but here I am, I'm excited to be. No, I just love everything that you're doing and just honored to be a guest.

Jeannie Walters: 0:49

Thank you so much.

Jeannie Walters: 0:50

Well, we're honored that you're here.

John Garrett: 0:52

I got elevated, so thank you.

Jeannie Walters: 0:54

Well, we are very honored that you're here and I know you pretty well, but our audience members might not know you as well, so can you share a little bit about yourself and also the work that you do?

John Garrett: 1:07

Yeah, absolutely. I graduated from Notre Dame and I was a big four CPA with PresswaterhouseCoopers and then left all corporate to do stand-up comedy full-time. That was actually 20 years ago, which I've got a little bit of a gap in my resume and yeah, and then eventually moved to New York City, wrote two Emmy-nom nominated award shows, did some pretty cool stuff and then had some near misses. So that's when I married Corporate John with Comedy John and that's where a lot of the speaking and all that. And then I had someone remember me who I had never met or worked with from my first PwC office 12 years earlier at a conference, told the meeting planner oh I know, John Garrett, that's the guy who did comedy at night. And uh, so that's where What's Your And came about of.

John Garrett: 1:53

Just who else are you beyond the job title? Uh, no one remembers your technical skills. Uh, you'd have to be a savant for someone to really remember how amazingly good you were, because all those technical skills are completely replaceable and so you've got to bring the human out from behind the job title. And that's really the work that I do is just who else are you beyond the job title? And it's fun to unlock people and help them live activated lives and create organizations with people-centric leaders that care.

Jeannie Walters: 2:25

That's fantastic.

Jeannie Walters: 2:27

Well, and I think one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is because in this work we do around customer experience, employee experience is such a huge part of what we do and as generations are coming into the workplace, they're saying more and more like I want to be authentic, I want you to know who I am, not just what I can do. So I think it's so interesting because some of the things that we're going to talk about today really kind of hit on that overlap between customer experience and employee experience and what you're talking about, speaking of and, let's say and a lot in this episode.

John Garrett: 3:03

But you got to use ampersands when you do the transcripts.

Jeannie Walters: 3:06

That's right.

John Garrett: 3:07

So there we go, get a little crazy.

Jeannie Walters: 3:10

But it really is a layered idea about what the workplace is today and how we can provide more meaning to not just the people who work there, but also who they serve, so I'm excited about this discussion.

John Garrett: 3:26

Yeah, well, I mean, and it could get deep too, because I mean, it's at work, it's outside of work, it's just human beings. We have all these other dimensions and yet we bury and abandon parts of ourselves for what we think is success, quote, unquote, and only to find out that it's chasing a ghost. Yeah, it's not healthy. And so it's really cool when you just have humans around you that you acknowledge.

Jeannie Walters: 3:54

That's right, and I think, thinking way back to when we first met, I think part of it was we were like, hey, you're human, I'm human, right, we connected. So I'm happy that that happened. But let's set this up a little bit. So I wanted to make sure that people understood how important it is to really think about the employee experience, what we're bringing to work, what we're asking people to bring to work, all of those things. So here's why we should one of the many reasons we should care about it. Companies that invest in employee experience have a 28% higher revenue growth than compared to those who don't.

Jeannie Walters: 4:33

Organizations with highly engaged employees are 21% more profitable. Businesses that invest in experienced, customer-facing employees report a 50% increase in revenue, and positive employee experience leads to a 10% higher satisfaction rate and a 22% increase in customer loyalty. So we are talking about things that matter. Sometimes, I think, when we talk about these things, people turn off and they think these are soft skills, these are things we don't really need to talk about. This has an absolute, dramatic bottom line impact on your organization.

Jeannie Walters: 5:13

So I wanted to kind of set the stage there. So we have a couple of things that I wanted to talk about today, the first one, and you never know, we've made this, we've talked about this before, but you never know where I'm going to pull these articles from, because sometimes they're very local but they have a big impact. So this one is from Built in Seattle and the headline is why these companies let team members share and explore personal passions at work. And it's like they wrote the headline for this discussion Pretty much, and it's a really great discussion. It includes ServiceNow and some other well-known organizations and some of the things that they're doing. So I know you had a chance to look at this. So what came up for you about this and what did you? What do you think motivated these companies to really take the steps that they did?

John Garrett: 6:08

Yeah, I mean I not just read it. I paid Lucas Dean a year ago to write the article, so then I could have it for you and me to talk.

Jeannie Walters: 6:16

Amazing. You know what that's preparation. Ladies and gentlemen.

John Garrett: 6:19

I'm way ahead, way ahead.

John Garrett: 6:21

But I mean it's, it's absolutely true. I mean and you know it said here. You know that, some studies done, you know eight and a half hours per week doing their outside of work hobbies and passions their ands, if you will, and 35 hours per week working on average, which seems low, but you know we have human beings that do work. You know you're not an accountant, you're not an engineer. You're not an attorney, you're not. You're a human that does accounting work. You're a human who does engineering work. It's a bigger thing. And you put the shirt on for a while and then you take it off and you're still you without the shirt on, without the label, without the work title, and, and so I love.

John Garrett: 7:03

You know the examples here. I mean they're simple things. Slack channel groups, employee resource groups that are based around. Some of them are a little bit, I feel like if you can create them more around people's ands, it's better. That helps bridge generational differences, it helps bridge DEI differences, it helps bridge all these other things that were a little bit forced and didn't quite land quite well, and so I think it's great how it's, you know, looking at the people that work there as multidimensional beings. That's right. So why don't we find out what else you like to do?

Jeannie Walters: 7:44

That's right. I was at a beautiful campus corporate campus a couple years ago and it was right when people were coming back to the office and there was a lot of outdoor space and it was beautiful. And at one of the lunches when I was there, I looked over and there was a whole table of young women knitting and they were just sitting there knitting, drinking their coffee, talking, and they said, yeah, that kind of happened because a lot of people took that up as their hobby during the shutdown and they didn't want to give it up, and so they found each other and they created this lunchtime knitting group it up. And they said that it actually encouraged some of them to come to the office on those days right, because they might not have other reasons to go, but they wanted that camaraderie and they wanted to share their passion and learn from each other and everything else.

Jeannie Walters: 8:39

So there were some of those things in this article as well about you know, even book clubs and things like that can really help people. And then I also liked that I think it was ServiceNow who's investing in like a whole platform that encourages lifelong learning of not just things that apply at work, but kind of investing in yourself that way, and so I think it is really looking at people in a different way and making sure we're considering that they're three-dimensional, multi-dimensional people who have all these different interests. So it's a cool thing to explore if you really think about it and get creative.

John Garrett: 9:20

In another example that was great too. Roland Sargent was another one that was interviewed for this and he was saying that he DJs on the side a little bit and somebody found out and they were like, hey, do you want to DJ this like executive retreat thing? And sure yeah, now the CEO knows them. They're like on a first name basis, like and so now you know you're not just one of, you know a thousand, you're you. Yeah, why don't you just stand out like that?

John Garrett: 9:47

I mean, that's my career journey, you know, is that and and it wasn't the work and a really strong resume that I definitely had, it was the outside of work hobby is what the thing that people remember. Because who you are is not what you do.

Jeannie Walters: 10:03

Right

John Garrett: 10:03

Who you are is bigger and richer. So if you show people who you are, then they're going to remember that and you're going to stand out and and I mean that worked for this guy in the article and it's it was awesome to read and be like, oh, it's a cool, cool thing.

Jeannie Walters: 10:17

I think, going back to those uh, you know stats that I talked about, like by investing in this for their employees, these organizations realize like, hey, this is going to help with employee retention, this is going to help people be more engaged.

Jeannie Walters: 10:30

Because we're investing in them in these different ways, we're allowing them to kind of share. And I think that when you kind of read all the things that people want in a workplace, belonging is so important and to your point, like, belonging means basically being seen and understood and so if we can share who we really are and share that, that helps us with that sense of belonging.

John Garrett: 10:57

Yeah, and just feeling valued. You know I'm valued as John, not valued as senior analyst.

Jeannie Walters: 11:04

Right

John Garrett: 11:04

You know. And so you know. It's simple, things like just hey, I know you were DJing this weekend, Do you have any pictures? Or how did it go? Or asking some question around people's hands and have a follow-up question or two, and then it's oh wow, that's cool, you remembered me for me type of thing.

Jeannie Walters: 11:25

Yeah. Exactly that's really cool.

Jeannie Walters: 11:31

So I think the other thing that I found kind of fascinating about that knitting group was, to your point, like it was not I mentioned young women because that's what stood out to me, but it was all different ages, all different types of people. And I actually worked with that company for a while and I remember asking about it and the one of the executives said oh, that thing has grown. That thing now has like several different days where they, you know, work together and they have different tutorials for each other and all these different things. So it's become a whole thing. But then he said now there's, like you know, all these different ones, like there's one of a group of people who are really into rebuilding cars. So they would. He's like it was great. It was like brought in pictures of their children. You know, they brought in a picture of their car and they passed it around and they found people would would appreciate that. So I think it is really something that people will, even when they move on from that place, they're going to remember those types of things and probably still have those connections, which are a lot more meaningful too.

John Garrett: 12:34

Absolutely

Jeannie Walters: 12:34

All good, and so when we talk about engaged employees especially, I think sometimes people assume engaged means people who are actively like, engaged, productive and doing their jobs and all of that. But some of that comes down to this idea of passion, like passion for their work, passion for each other, passion for customers. And so this next thing I want to talk about it's from Harvard Business Review, which makes frequent appearances here on CX Pulse Check.

John Garrett: 13:07

Never heard of them. I know right, Never heard of them.

Jeannie Walters: 13:10

And the title is to leverage employee passion save it for when it counts. And this really stood out to me because, instead of making a case for, like, you have to get passionate employees and you have to do all this, it was almost making the case of watch out for your most passionate employees because they might burn out faster. And so making that connection between how can you protect them, how can you make sure that they're taking care of themselves, because if we're not careful, these are the people who will burn out quickly. So curious on your thoughts on this.

John Garrett: 13:44

Yeah, no, I mean, that's absolutely right. I mean, I think the one thing that's really interesting, though, is that it's important to note that you don't have to be passionate about exactly the work that you do. You just have to be passionate about something, and then you can take that enthusiasm and energy and that inertia moving forward and then, okay, now go knock out that spreadsheet.

John Garrett: 14:07

You know, or whatever it is.

John Garrett: 14:08

So you don't have to love, you know, accounts payable, but you just have to be alive and then take that energy. And so I think when I read articles like this, they a lot of people assume you have to be passionate about your job and you don't. You really don't. I mean, you just have to be good at it and like it and you know. But it doesn't have to be the reason you exist and the reason you wake up every morning. It really doesn't. There's something else. But then you do the job to make the money to go do the cool stuff you know, type of thing. So so don't. I think a lot of this article points towards being passionate about your work, and so I just want people to understand like you don't have to be, but if you are passionate about your work, then that's great. And put up some guardrails because, yeah, our brain and is not our friend all the time, and more is not always better, and you will self-sacrifice and cut off all kinds of limbs and appendages for success and it's like yeah, what are you doing?

John Garrett: 15:15

You know a good leader will help you, like some organizations that I work with still do, like billable hours, professional services world, and I asked them do you have a report of people who don't reach a minimum number of hours? You know they're below the billable hour. Oh yeah, absolutely, we're all over those people. Like I said, well, do you have a similar report for people that reach too many billable hours? Why would we have that? Well, because those people are about to explode.

John Garrett: 15:42

So you know, I mean that's the more important report is the people that are running a little too hot for too long and you have to step in and let them know. Look, you don't have to keep proving it, you know, dial it down, because you're going to burn out and be done. And now you're not good to me, you're not good to yourself, your family or your friends or our clients and customers. And so, yeah, I mean absolutely, as a people-centric leader, you have to keep an eye on that as well. Sure, it makes you look good, but when they fall off a cliff, then it hurts. So you know help them help themselves.

Jeannie Walters: 16:22

Well, and I think it's interesting, because all of us kind of come into the world with a certain lens or certain things that we're passionate about and we can't always flip the switch right, we can't always say like, woohoo, spreadsheets, if that's not our thing.

Jeannie Walters: 16:39

And one of the things that I have to connect with sometimes, because you know, as a business owner, you're doing everything, whether you like it or not, right? So I have been running this business for almost 16 years and, yeah, I've got to deal with spreadsheets sometimes or things that really I'm not super into. But I try to take a step back and think about the why. Like okay, I'm, I'm looking at the spreadsheet because I want to know X, because that's going to help me do Y, and once I get into that, then I can like flip a switch of. It helps me stay engaged and get a little more passionate about those things that I'm not super enthusiastic about. And I try to remind my team that all the time too. Like don't just do things, like I never want you to just do things because I asked you to do them. Like that's, that's my children.

John Garrett: 17:30

That's what. That's what that's for.

Jeannie Walters: 17:32

But if, if there are things that, like you know you're doing and you're not sure why, then we need to fix that, because that is where we that's where you get the best output too is where people understand the why and it helps them connect with that and I think that helps prevent some of that burnout of you know, go, go, go and do the billable hours and all that. But at the same time, we also, as much as we want people to bring their whole selves to work. There are certain things we don't know about people, like they might be battling things that we don't know about, and so being aware of that as a leader, I think, is so important too, because you never really know unless they you know something dramatic or they are sharing sometimes too much right. So we're asking people to walk this line and I think that's part of helping people avoid that burnout is really understanding exactly who they are.

John Garrett: 18:31

Yeah, I mean it's, you know what's professional has changed rapidly, even in the last five years, let alone the last hundred years, and and so you know it's it's it's people understanding that, like that definition has always changed, but what's unprofessional has always existed and that's if you inhibit some, your ability or someone else's ability to do their job well, then that's unprofessional. So don't do so, you know. But other than that, gloves are off like go nuts. You know, get to know each other. We're around each other more waking hours than our families and friends, and you know we're, you know, all in on this with a team. So, you know, get to know each other a little bit.

John Garrett: 19:16

And then, yeah, if people are running a little too hot, you know, pull them aside as a friend, because you've created these relationships, these non-billable minutes between the billable hours, if you will, that where you create this relationship. So you're pulling your friend aside and be like, hey, I'm a little concerned, are you okay? Like you know, what are you running from? Like you don't have to keep proving this like wait, you know, and uh, um, type of thing, and and so, yeah, I mean, I thought, I thought it was, it was great, um, that you know, as a friendly reminder of like you don't have to keep dialing it up and I feel like that's, that's a lot of this. This culture is, you know, side, hustle side. No, none of it, none of it's revenue generating, none of these side things are. They're just things that I enjoy doing, you know, and and this hustle and this more, more, more, more for what you know and like at some point, like enough's enough type of thing and think long term.

Jeannie Walters: 20:13

Yeah, yeah. And I think often of the contact center agents who are out there who burn out because we basically ask the impossible. We say deal with all these angry people all day long which we have a physiological response to. We can't help it, we can't say to ourselves I'm not going to react to this when somebody's yelling at you.

Jeannie Walters: 20:37

And so that creates all this stress, all this cortisol, all this stuff. And then we're like, well, you didn't meet your numbers right, you didn't take enough calls, and what we've realized there's been kind of an evolution in this in the last decade plus. But some really forward thinking places realize like this is not sustainable. So they're putting in like wellness requirements kind of throughout the day and they're saying like, okay, after this many calls or whenever you want, here's how you take a break here. Some actually put in like little exercise rooms with like bikes and stuff so people can just like move. Some of them have nature paths and stuff.

Jeannie Walters: 21:16

So they're really trying to think about what do humans need? Humans need fresh air, humans need water, humans need rest. Humans need these things. And if we stick somebody in a cubicle and say good luck, of course they're going to be losing it with a customer by the end of the day. So I think we have to totally reframe that discussion as well, because otherwise we're not just burning them out, we're actually creating real problems for the business and the customer and who knows what else. So I mean there have been lawsuits over people who have been, you know, sworn at by a contact center agent.

John Garrett: 21:56

That's amazing.

Jeannie Walters: 21:57

And you look at them and you're like, hmm, that was like the 12th or 13th call in an hour. Who knows what they've been through right.

Jeannie Walters: 22:03

So I think we have to really broaden our view of what does it mean to care for people who work at our organizations?

John Garrett: 22:11

Yeah, because it's a human being behind that job title. Yes, and you wouldn't treat your assets that are digital like that. You wouldn't have your computers on running 87 programs all at the same time for five days in a row. So then, why should humans be the same? They're even more fragile.

Jeannie Walters: 22:30

What a good segue.

Jeannie Walters: 22:32

It's like we planned it, John, that is

John Garrett: 22:33

Well, it's like I had homework to be on this show, so you know hey

Jeannie Walters: 22:39

Well, you did your homework, because our next one.

John Garrett: 22:42

Co-host look at me.

Jeannie Walters: 22:46

It's all about the people. So we've talked about this a couple of times in kind of various forms. Starbucks keeps evolving right now because they're really trying to find their place again. So the most interesting thing here this is from Business Insider and the headline is Starbucks doubles down on baristas, not AI, to fix its customer crunch. And this has been really interesting for me to watch, because they went through a whole thing a couple of years ago about, you know, creative drink orders and all these like things that actually slowed everything down, and what they also realized was that more and more people were relying on mobile ordering, but they didn't have the right system for that versus the drive-through and all this. Then they started really getting into AI and some functionality there to have different order-taking models, and essentially what they found was you know what? We're not fast enough. That's what everybody's complaining about.

Jeannie Walters: 23:46

There were reports several months ago about people waiting 40 minutes four zero minutes for a drink, and that was consistent.

Jeannie Walters: 23:54

So people were really starting to get upset and they were abandoning Starbucks, and their whole kind of ethos is about being the third place too, and they were shutting down cafes, they were going, all these things. So now they're starting to say you know what, maybe we need to bring people back, Maybe we need more baristas, more of that human touch, more of the thing that people go to Starbucks for. Sometimes it's for that friendly face. So this really stood out to me because, while Starbucks is doing this, the flip side is more and more, especially, fast food places are starting to use AI for order taking and all sorts of things, and maybe that will speed up and maybe customers will appreciate that too, because they're different experiences. But it's just, I think it's kind of a bold move for Starbucks and I think that it's something that people might be craving right now. So so what did you think about this?

John Garrett: 24:50

Yeah, no, I mean I, I agree. I mean how many, how many coffees can a shop put out in an hour? You know, like, at some point we've reached capacity, right, and you know, I don't care if there's online, like you can order on the app, but you know you're going to wait 40 minutes where, if you show up at the store and the line's long, you're going to be like, yeah, I'm just not getting it. Um, you know, but if you already ordered, well I guess you're waiting. Um, and there's, there's only so many that can be made. I mean, you just can't do it. I mean they got Starbucks across the streets from other Starbucks, so just go to that one, I mean, and they still don't have enough, you know.

John Garrett: 25:26

So you know, at some point enough is enough and good for Starbucks for being like, you know what, we've reached capacity and we need humans because they're more efficient at these special orders, at if something malfunctions, if there's a tweak or whatever.

John Garrett: 25:43

Like, AI and bots are great when things are humming and, yeah, you can't compete, but when there's a curve ball or there's special order Susie in front of you, then you're in trouble and so, or you get me, uh, who doesn't even know the size names. So I'm just getting a medium and uh, and they're like oh, do you mean a blah blah, blah? That's not even a word, it's a medium. And so they're like I can't find it on the screen. Of course you can't, because I'm a human and stop being dumb. But no, I love it. You know because, especially from the customer service side of things, you know, having a human being hand you that is great, and having a human being misspell your name on the cup is all part of the experience.

Jeannie Walters: 26:32

Exactly

John Garrett: 26:32

mean, it's all part of it.

Jeannie Walters: 26:33

There's nothing like it. There's nothing like it.

John Garrett: 26:35

I mean it really is. I mean and it's. But having a human hand, that to you, and seeing the people behind there, I think you're more sympathetic. I think you're a little more like. You know, when you're behind the app and you order and then it says it's going to be 40 minutes and you become a keyboard warrior and you're just yelling at. You don't see the face and the human behind that counter, and so I think it's great where they're like you know what enough's enough, and this is where we're at.

Jeannie Walters: 27:01

I love it too. I think that it will be really great to see the results that they get too, because the other thing that this article didn't necessarily talk about but I have thought about is that this you know, when you have humans working, they notice things, right. Before they become patterns, before they become data points, and so if they're finding that you know what everybody's ordering this dumb unicorn drink, which was a thing a couple years ago right, oh right, it's like 15 minutes to make. Can we please stop making this? Eventually, that goes to the right people.

Jeannie Walters: 27:37

Even things like their past CEO did this, where he went into different stores and worked in the store and he was kind of like wait, we've got so many different cup options that one of the things that was happening was orders were made wrong because they were put in the wrong cup and so they'd have to start all over and it wasted cups and it wasted times.

Jeannie Walters: 27:56

And he was like we need to go back to just like having a few sizes of cups and making it easier for everybody and so little things like that. That can improve both the speed of the experience and the quality of the experience. That is because humans notice and until we get to a place where the robot is literally you know some guy we call joe who is just like part of the family, then I think we need people to really look for those improvements to be made and be the ones who are there testing things and trying things out and all that, and they can look you in the eye and say sorry about the wait. Right, that matters. So I think that this is a really good thing to watch and I'm excited about it. And I'm curious, though your name is John, so how often do they misspell it?

John Garrett: 28:49

I get the J-O-N. It's like I didn't say Jonathan.

Jeannie Walters: 28:53

I'm so sorry that happens to you. It's the worst.

John Garrett: 28:57

I just walk out with my medium and a hot chocolate and I'm like that's all you want. You don't want any, all kind of no, I don't. I'm simple, I'm pretty. I go to Starbucks like twice a year and that's about it, and it's because somebody else wanted to go.

Jeannie Walters: 29:13

Well, next time you go you'll have to show you know, show me a picture if they spelled your name right.

Jeannie Walters: 29:23

Cause I want that for you.

John Garrett: 29:24

See, this is why we're friends. This is why we're friends, right here.

Jeannie Walters: 29:27

Cause Jeannie is not spelled right most of the time. I'll tell you that much. But

John Garrett: 29:32

There's some varieties.

John Garrett: 29:33

Yeah, and like, are you a genie, or is your name Jeannie,

Jeannie Walters: 29:37

That's right.

John Garrett: 29:38

Or something in-between.

Jeannie Walters: 29:39

Or Jenny, or Janine, or yeah, there's all sorts of them, yeah.

John Garrett: 29:43

There, you go.

Jeannie Walters: 29:54

So, yeah, it's fun. I always have to listen, like what are they going to call me, I dunno, it's up. It's a mystery. Well this was so fun John. I know it would be. I want people to know, first of all, your book is fantastic "What's Your And? It's full of great stories of people who have shared things about their lives beyond profession and it's just a great inspirational book. And then you also are a keynote speaker, you're a facilitator, you're an emcee. You do all sorts of great things at events. So if people want to reach out and learn more about you, what's the best way for them to connect?

John Garrett: 30:19

Yeah, I mean you can go to thejohngarrettcom or whatsyourandcom, as a lot of the podcasts and the book stuff, so yeah.

Jeannie Walters: 30:27

Excellent, and, yes, the podcast too, and so we'll put all of that in the show notes, of course.

Jeannie Walters: 30:32

So I encourage you all look out for John and think about what's your and. That's always a good question, all right, well, thank you for being here, and thank all of you for being here at the Experience Action Podcast and for listening. As you know, on the weeks we're not doing CX Pulse Check, I answer your questions, so leave me a voicemail at askjeannievip. Maybe you'll be on the next episode of Experience Action. Thanks for being here, everybody. See you next time.